Sparks of Genius: Creativity, Polymaths, and the Human Edge

Welcome to Deep Pockets with Petra ing the show about government and innovation. I hope you enjoy today's episode and the music created by a New Orleans jazz icon, Leroy Jones. Find this and other Lero Jones tunes wherever you get your music.

Earlier this year I was attending a networking dinner at a noisy restaurant, and I was seated towards the end of a long table, next to a group of [00:01:00] young professionals. And as we were somewhat isolated from the rest of the group being at the end of the table, our conversation went quickly, deeper than your usual conference, chitchat and pleasantries.

We talked a lot about science, of course, about finding your career path. In science and then just figuring out what you want to do in life in general. And as a side note, figuring out what you want to do in life is not age related. I was a hundred percent in on this discussion. So at one point, this man who was sitting next to me, Jesus Sanchez Herrera, he pulls out a book and says, this book has changed the way I approach science career and problems in life in general.

This book was Sparks of G News, the 13 Thinking Tools of the World's Most Creative People by Robert and Michelle Root Bernstein. So the evening went on [00:02:00] and then I actually agreed to become his mentor on topics such as strategy and career path and innovation of course. Uh, which is another story, or maybe it's this story actually.

'cause you'll see. So I went home and I ordered the book, and then days went by and weeks went by and I did not have time to read this book, but a couple of months into this. Uh, we were having one of our online mentoring sessions, again with Jesus, and we were talking about business models and networking.

We were talking about communication, human behavior. We started to talk about trust and people's motives, and it was really an enjoyable conversation. And just at some point I said, you know. We should record this. We should have this conversation in a podcast 'cause it was so inspiring. And then it hit me.

Now I finally need to read the book that Hazel carries everywhere and discuss the book with him on deep pockets Only. Now I had an eye [00:03:00] infection, so I had to begin by listening to other podcasts, uh, where authors Robert and Michelle Root Bernstein discussed their research. 'cause I couldn't read. So Robert and Michelle are a couple.

He's originally a professor of physiology at Michigan State University. He has degrees in biochemistry and history of science. And then in 1981, he was awarded the MacArthur Fellowship, which is known as the Genius Grant. And basically it's a permission for a professor to do. Kind of whatever they want.

And she, Michelle, she has a PhD in history from Princeton. She's an adjunct pos, she has an adjunct position at the Department of Theater, also at Michigan State. And she's an independent scholar writer, and she's a well-known haiku poet. So there's a lot of science and art in that relationship. And in these podcasts that I'm listening to with my eye infection, they tell this story how it all began.

So Robert says that one [00:04:00] evening at dinner, he tells Michelle that. I read the weirdest interview about the physicist Werner Heisenberg, who is the German theoretical physicist, one of the pioneers of quantum mechanics, and he was also the principal scientist in the German nuclear program during World War, world War ii.

So how Werner Heisenberg was using abstraction in physics in the exactly same way as Picasso was using abstraction in his abstract paintings. And Michelle responded over this dinner. No way. I just read the same thing about EE Comics, how he was using abstraction in creating the poems. In the same way painters create abstract paintings, so they start to look into it how people in different fields are using the same tools and processes to create.

Remarkable and Breakthrough Works. So, uh, this book that they wrote, it's based on interviews of maybe three or [00:05:00] 400 people about their creative processes, and as a result, this couple presents 13 different tools. And here is where I introduce, uh, today's a guest. Jesus Sanchez Herrera is a multidisciplinary research engineer with experience in quantum tech and nano technologies development.

He has a Bachelor of Science in Engineering from the university, Carlos II in Madrid, and the University of New South Wales in Sydney, and master of science in quantum physics from Paris. He's a Volcanoes in Japan alumni, which is a selective program launched by the EU Japan Center for Industrial Corporation, working at NTT Basic Research Laboratories.

After that, he continued working on physical properties of materials at places such as Taes and the French Commission of Atomic Energy. During his studies, he, he explored topics [00:06:00] such as automation, control theory, and material science. His exploration led him to the innovative and intellectually challenging field of quantum technologies, and that is of course how we met.

His last activities have been centered on the development of physical platforms for quantum computing in the spin, qubit and topological approach, he's currently co-coordinating a project for the use of machine learning to scale up quantum hardware at Lu Lab Canik, more specifically, uh, to help scaling up spin qubit systems by improving, improving data analysis and parameters tuning.

Which is French for the Quantum Lab is a not-for-profit that federates, uh, the French quantum ecosystem. And one of the main activities of L Lab Canik is to popularize the subject for large companies. We via white papers, [00:07:00] and they are also a community where people can launch their own projects and are interested in learning by writing articles, organizing hackathons, organizing seminars, and so forth.

Jesus is a lifelong learner and advocate of creativity and innovation in stem, and he enjoys learning languages. He's, he currently speaks Spanish, English, French, and German, and he's still making progress in Russian and Japanese. That is so impressive. Welcome to Deep Pockets. Jesus. 

jesus: Thank you be, it's great to be here.

So first of all, thanks so much for all the great conversations we've had. Over the past months and the inspiration and the things that I can learn from you. Uh, second, anything you'd like to add to my short introduction of who you are? 

jesus: Well, it's a pleasure to be on the podcast and you know, I, I love to talk more about how many technical experience, uh, intertwines with [00:08:00] this amazing book, which I really believe, but also how it intertwines with my carrying activities are the lab.

Okay. And more importantly, um, about my great interest in creativity and training that creativity using the 13 tools. 

Perfect. Okay. Let's dive into creative thinking and creative doing. That's one of the things that the authors highlight, that although creative is an adjective, and it sounds like a trait that we're born with, like some people are creative and some people aren't.

It's actually more like a verb. In terms of anyone, anyone who creates is a creator and therefore they are creative. And that you learn creativity by doing, by creating. So that kind of demystifies the term nicely, I think. Um, so during that dinner you told me that you carry this book with you. Always. Our first question, why?[00:09:00] 

jesus: Well, yeah, indeed. There's still a lot of demy finances about CRE creating and creativity. So I actually like to think about creativity as knowledge informed imagination that actually has a novel output. Uh, now it's actually more interesting to say this concept as a cycle or as a feedback loop. Rather than a linear process.

So once you create the output, uh, you will in turn inform your process and will, you know, step by step pick up is better that it, um, so also a relevant element in the book, but makes me like it's so much, it's the emphasis on connecting the symbolic knowledge that we pick up at school to everyday knowledge.

Um, [00:10:00] so there's another motivation, which is just about connecting both, connecting everything, all the experiences, uh, and so that what, what is the result of this is to, the insights that you might get in one field can be translated and, and spark some idea and the other. But actually, before we get any further with the discussion, let me just tell you a short story.

About how I found this book in an engineering school library. Um, so during my studies, engineering studies, I was discovering, uh, you know, discovering, trying to grasp, uh, too many technical concepts for my studies. So, however, I, I was never a typical STEM person, if there is anything like that. Um, but as a kid I was participating in drawing contests.

I was writing poems for my schools newspaper, [00:11:00] uh, writing tales about the creation of New World. So yeah, I decided to go into engineering because there was something I've always liked in it. So, inventions, most of my favorite series as a kid were about futuristic, creative inventions. And once I got into engineering school, the demands for speed, uh, learning was really high.

So I studied a multidisciplinary engineering bachelor's that we call industrial in Spain, and I was taking courses on electronics, material science, electrical engineering, fluid mechanics, linear algebra, et cetera. So trying to grasp all this myriad of information. Without staying at the superficial level was a real, real challenge.

And then one day in the library I found the 13 tools. [00:12:00] Uh, and as I came through it, I discovered statements in the book that in of resonated and gave coherence to how I already felt about STEM education. But anyway, more on that later. So by use of these 13 tools, I enjoyed my engineering courses way more.

Since I could start approaching them in a novel, creative way. Uh, and you know what? Actually I still enjoy learning about courses that I took in my past studies. So I guess these tools can also play a big role in motivation to learn. Now you might be wondering what is the target audience of the book like that?

So the authors describe the importance of creativity training in society to train polymer. Now poly maps are people who are capable of applying insights from one field to the other. And um, this is not an easy task of course, but [00:13:00] in an interview, Michelle actually says that successful managers who want to lead with inside their teams should be polymers because this would allow them to understand what every member in the group is doing.

Besides, I've always enjoyed creating for myself, but now I also approach content creation in a different way. So I also approach content creation as a way to find my way and industries that I find interesting. So, you know, I was recently talking to the founder of Con Conduct Quantum. So Conductor Quantum is a company based in San Francisco that also uses AI to automate.

Uh, the creation of qubit systems, uh, and silicon, and talking to him, he made me realize the importance of leading your conversation with a project that infuses you [00:14:00] with energy. 

Thanks Jesus. That's really, really interesting. I love the idea, uh, how you said you go back to your old study materials. Uh, that's a great way to get like a deeper understanding of the theories, and I think you refer to them as symbolic knowledge.

I love that term. Um, you know, once you start gaining practical knowledge yourself. And this gives me a good idea. I should really get, go back to my old books, um, you know, go back to them and, uh, see how I view them now that I've actually, uh, done the work for a little bit. Okay. Uh, but let's start to review these 13 tools.

Go ahead. Hazards the floor is yours. 

jesus: Yeah. So let's start with observing, uh, observing of observation is actually to pay attention to what you see, you hear. You've touched, you feel in your body, and it's also about honing all the [00:15:00] senses to, you know, the idea to perceive accurately, accurately as well. And being a huge arch lover myself, and also having an incl for the way poetry describes the world, um, this is a tool I can really resonate with because this is how.

Often poet, um, see reality. 

Yeah, it is really interesting Actually. My favorite poem, um, is by Mary Oliver, and it has the idea of observing in it. It's called Instructions for Living a Life Pay Attention. Be Astonished, tell about it. Very, uh, kind of inspirational. Okay. The next tool in the book is imaging.

Uh, imaging is described as the ability to recall or imagine these feelings and sensations [00:16:00] at will. But in the interest of time, we can go through all 13. We're gonna skip a few of these. So we're skipping, uh, imaging. We are going to go into abstraction next. What is abstraction? 

jesus: Yeah. Right. So oxygen, because.

All these same experience is rich and complex. Um, being able to pair it down to simple principles, uh, is essential. So from the book, what I understand is that obstruction is a way to strip off non-essential properties of an object, you know, just, just suck the way. Picasso, uh, he struck abstract a ball and he leaves the ball in a pair in a pair of homes.

And also a really geo magic figure for the body, uh, in the book. They also, I find this is a bit funny, so they propose an exercise to the reader to obstruct a orange. And, well, actually, I have to say here [00:17:00] that my approach to obstruction is slightly different. So I like to find the commonality between different cases of representation.

So let me just give an example. Um, in the case of oranges, like from all the oranges you've seen in your life. Like, what are the commonalities? And I think this, or even bulls, you know, uh, so Picasso, so I, I could say, this is what can also give you a sense of the abstraction of a, of an object. 

Hmm. It was absolutely my favorite chapter, uh, abstraction.

Uh, even before I, I read the book. I was, you know, skimming through it and I was watching this, there's like four pictures of the bull and how Picasso makes it more and more abstractive. So, um, uh, really. Inspiring. And my father was an architect and he always taught me to simplify, simplify, simplify. Same with my book editor.

Simplify. Okay. Uh, let's continue. The next tool we have is recognizing [00:18:00] patterns. 

jesus: Yeah. So I mean, we all recognize patterns around us. Uh, we go to the supermarket, uh, we see that the prices are going up and then we might think, uh. Uh, is this like attendance in the market or, you know, scientists, they make sense out, out of trends in data writers, poets, again, they find beautiful connections and structures.

Um, and then they are formed by set of impressions and feelings. So every moment of every day we organize the random events we see here or field by grouping them. And you know what? But actually, besides. Recognizing patterns is the first step towards creating new ones, which is what creation is about, right?

Mm-hmm. So forming patterns, um, this is a different tool actually, so it's combining simple elements in unexpected ways. Inventors are really great [00:19:00] at this. So, uh, by the way, this non-obvious nature of pattern forming. It's really, really important in intellectual property. 'cause when you're trying to find a patent for your invention, this is one of the conditions that they're gonna look, uh, for.

So personally, I just, let's say for instance, when I'm trying to draw something and I'm not feeling particularly inspired, which is usually the case. I like looking at pet patterns, uh, not just around me. So I can look at good panels. I can, you know, pull, pull some liquid on the surface and see what kind of, uh, patterns it draws.

And this usually feels an idea that I can later work with

that is so, uh, fascinating, recognizing and [00:20:00] creating different patterns. Thank you. The next one we have is analogizing. This was an interesting chapter. They talked a lot about quantum theories, but to me it was perhaps a little difficult to relate to. What do you think? 

jesus: Yeah, so advertising is actually probably one of my favorite, if, if not my favorite one.

Mm-hmm. So I, I actually believe it's one of the main drivers for cross discrimination, which is so important, uh, in business and research nowadays, but it's also a meta tool. This is why it might be more complex. So actually recognize the patterns as we talked before. In patterns. So we, we recognize patterns in other patterns, and this leads directly to analogizing.

So analogizing is the realization that two apparently different things. They share important properties for functions, and the authors even say that this [00:21:00] lies at the heart of many great inventions, not only in arts, but also in scientific theories. And, uh, if you want to use it in your personal life, you can also try to find solutions in different activities that you do.

Uh, I will just give you a, uh, an example. Um, I sometimes use models I learn to, uh, to use to analyze electrical circuits, so you know, the ones with resistances and capacity, et cetera. And I try, uh, to model my own projects, uh, and the time that it should put into each of them. Uh, so sometimes I'm wonder, should I connect my projects in parallel?

Should I connect them, uh, in series? And this actually helps me make more planning, more strategic, and at least also more fun. 

Nice. Thank you. Um, next we have something called body thinking. What on earth is body [00:22:00] thinking? To me, it sounds like, uh, it's the thinking that, uh. Like you can immerse yourself, like think that you immerse your body inside something or, uh, it's like the thinking that occurs through the sensations and awareness of your own, your muscles, your skin, your whole body.

Is that it? 

jesus: Yeah, absolutely. So positive thinking. You know, I mean the tools for thinking they as defined in the book, they are preverbal and pretty symbolic. Um, so it's feelings we have. Uh, we get even before being able to put that into, uh, actual words. So in that sense, I think po thinking is the best example.

It is the filling of ideas emerging on it can actually serve as a springboard for more formal thoughts. Um, so it allows us to recognize, organize, and address problems using information we get from all the [00:23:00] different sensors in our body. Uh, just two artists here. I think this is a really good point that can set us apart from AI reasoning, reasoning capabilities.

Uh, but this is just a personal opinion and just to keep, um, Delvin into this fascinating tool. Do you know that actually, uh, most of us have, uh, kinesthetic and design in, uh, physical principles? So I'll keep talking about physics 'cause this is my background. But we all have a physical, kinetic, kinesthetic understanding of concepts like talk that we develop from actions.

So we get this understanding from actions in our day everyday lives, such as opening a door. So by connecting the symbolic, theoretical, and kinesthetic understanding of physical principles or even mathematical concept, I believe that the. Uh, insights we get from daily [00:24:00] actions like cooking or fixing something, et cetera, might spark a novel way of thinking about, uh, our symbolic understanding.

And, you know, this has happened many times in history for mathematicians like re who is just stepping in the trial way, et cetera. Um. I actually talked about the torque concept before because there was an anecdote in the book that I found really funny. So it was a former classmate of the authors that aced physics in school.

He used to get the best results in tests, and he had got the best, he had gotten the best results in a test about torque, yet when he had to push up in a heavy hole in the university. He was pushing it at the center rather than the edge where to knobs are usually placed. 

Wow. 

jesus: So he couldn't connect the symbolic and the sun and the [00:25:00] kinesthetic one.

Now in classical mechanics, like this is the case, it's usually easier to make this connection between symbol and body. However, and again, this is a personal opinion, I believe that even in quantum mechanics. Where the laws of nature are different to the ones we experience every day in our bodies, but I think there are still some connections we can make that can help us grasp at least partially some of the behavior of existing models.

And I go do that by connecting son of a kinesthetic understanding to the concept in linear algebra that is needed to. Uh, make these models for Quantum to build the models. And just let me leave you with an example. So, uh, Einstein, as you said, I mean, he [00:26:00] loved, uh, he loved saying that he, he liked to work when he was going sailing and our committees.

He discovered the concept of density while he was immersed himself in the bathtub. 

Hmm. I didn't know that Einstein, uh, was a sailor. I love this idea. Like Einstein going sailing and defining this like, uh, as a body thinking. So next time I go sailing, I'm gonna immerse myself in, uh, body thinking. I. Um, okay, next one we have is called empathizing empathy.

Empathizing. I think it's, uh, what the world needs. Now, more and more if you read the news, uh, empathizing is putting yourself in the shoes of other people and thinking, uh, from their perspective. Uh, could this be related in the body thinking in some way? 

jesus: So, yes, actually empathizing, uh, when we think about putting ourselves in the shoes of others is actually.

One way of empathizing [00:27:00] in their book, they, they talk about empathizing and together with play acting, and it's actually meant to lose oneself in the optics of study, uh, be it people, uh, physical object, et cetera. So yeah, integrating the I and the X, the object. So honestly, I, this is one I yet have to explore more.

But I really believe that it can bring us out of, you know, our usual thinking routines, but try by trying to replicate in our minds, uh, some of the properties that other people objects have. And for instance, Richard Thyman, great physicist. Uh, he revolutionized quantum physics by asking himself questions such as, if I were an electron, what would I do?

Uh, there is also quote, but another physicist, [00:28:00] Jacob Shaham on play acting. And he said, I, I like acting and I acting, taught me how to read equations like a script with characters I had to bring to life. So now this might sound silly, but we are talking about sparks that need later need to be further developed.

And, uh, these are ways of changing our usual linear process of thinking. And I would just like to add a personal technique that I use here on Playact team. So I actually correlate, all I do is job, role play acting. So basically I came from passing interviews for quantum computing companies and startups.

Which is a highly competitive sector, I can tell you. And I had to learn really fast and structure as well, what I wanted to learn and explain how I learned it. [00:29:00] So for that, I imagine the jobs, uh, the job requirements. I imagine, imagine them split it in different, uh, smaller jobs with different tasks assigned to different roles, and actually.

Then after doing so and training myself on the different roles, I thought of myself as those people's manager. And for me, the manager is someone who needs to have an idea of what everyone's doing. And that's a more superficial knowledge, but still insightful. So not only this, this helped me to see how the different tasks can be trained separately, how they fit together again, but also.

To manage tasks in a strategic way to achieve the job requirements. And you know, the great thing about manager play acting is that it forces you to do abstraction of the knowledge of all these tasks, uh, [00:30:00] tasks. Um, while the expert role, it gets you more into technical details. 

Mm. I, I love this. Job, role play, acting practice, I think you should totally claim it as like a patent or a trademark.

Start sharing with the other job seekers. That would be great. Could be the next big thing. Um, alright, we are then moving on from empathizing to modeling. What is modeling? 

jesus: So modeling is a tool widely used in science and engineering. Uh, but it's also done in primary school, right? So they gave us a.

Statements and they ask us about the information. So equation so we can translate the variable information into um, a really simple algebra model. Something. Okay. Something I would like to add here about models is that we have to take into account, they always have [00:31:00] limitations. This means that they can, they completely.

When applied to conditions for which they were not developed. And I say this because in physics and engineering study models, limitations and why they're valid. Uh, for me it's as important as successfully, uh, being able to use them, solving the equations. But I believe this is not done enough in engineering schools.

I think the importance of. Models, uh, is that they align the optic of study to the human psyche. So again, in the words of Richard, famine models help us gain mastery of concepts, but should not be confused with the concepts themselves. And theory should always try to win itself from the models [00:32:00] upon which it was built.

So he gave the example of Maxwell's discovery of Electrodynamics that was first made with a lot of imaginary wheels, idols in space, uh, that were not correct, but once you get rid of all the idols wheels in space, the theory actually was okay. And since we are talking about models, um, I've directly jumped into mental models.

Well, actually more precisely thinking in frameworks or thinking frameworks. So one of the bottlenecks, the polymaths of an encounter is information overwhelm. But in this regard, thinking frameworks are met, recognition tools that help us structure our thinking and communication. So they are why they're using consulting, for instance, and, but they also taught to job seekers to effectively communicate.

What they [00:33:00] worked on in the past. So one of the methods I really like is called score, which stands in French for situation, content, tool, results and evaluation. While I originally learned about this to talk about my professional experience, I started applying it later to analyze papers and research, uh, to draft roadmaps for my project, et cetera.

And actually beja, what I, what I like the most about this particular framework is that, you know, as complex as the information may be, uh, we are forced to find at least five principles. So we need to find the context, uh, for our project, the main tasks that we have to achieve, the tools that need to be used, uh, results that we specked.

And also and really important [00:34:00] how these are going to be evaluated. So how and who will verify those and what impact will they have? 

Hmm. Thinking frame, actually thinking frame works. You, I think you were using some of these thinking frameworks even when we were preparing for the podcast. That was great.

Thank you so much. Uh, our next tool for creativity is one that is much used in business. Um, is playing. This is problematic for me because, uh. In my career, I've lived through years when gamification became a big thing. Everything needed to be gamified, and I'm a little embarrassed to confess maybe this is a big gaming industry in Finland where I'm from.

I'm not actually a big fan of playing and. Trying to gamify things like education, for example. I, I, I feel like not everything should be gamified, but, [00:35:00] uh, as I read the book, I kind of understand the, what they're saying. So let's, let's have your take. Jesus. Uh, let's talk about playing. 

jesus: Yes, I, I, I kind of agree with you as well.

But, but, so to start with the definition that the office gave, uh, about playing in the book. So they say it's a goalless activity. Performed for enjoyment that incidentally developed skill, intuition, and knowledge. So maybe the problem with prefix, um, gamification. So the game rules are already set up and this constraints the player.

I believe this tool is actually already well used, so it's not rare to hear professors in. Any of the languages I, I, I've heard in, in school, like, you know, go home, play with a code, uh, do your homework, play [00:36:00] around those equations. Try different solution, try different methods. Um, so I think this is already well known, but what I like about playing with a model or idea is that you never know where the process is going to lead to.

Hmm. 

jesus: Since, I mean when, once when you play, you start looking at a bigger space of possibilities and also you lose the fear of doing something wrong. This is why I personally believe it is a great tool, not only for the expert who wants and needs some new, more insights, but someone who starts in a new field, uh, and is too scared to start.

Since this fear of failure is lowered. And so, yeah, I mean, it can really help tackling imposter syndrome and making the process of bridging our gaps in knowledge. [00:37:00] Just more fun, relaxed, and sometimes more strategic, which is a word I really like. Uh, and in some years, you know, playing just removes the fear of failure and sparks imagination and not thinking.

Mm. Okay. Yeah, that does make sense. Thank you for clarifying that for me. All right. What's next? 

jesus: Yeah, so I mean, I covered, um, most of the tools that I really liked in the book, and I would just like to finish by adding three principles that I came up with and I like to stick to them while I'm learning, while I'm in the learning process.

Um, so actually I find these three principles, they are. More useful when you know, when the learning, when you have no obligations for that particular learning and where there when there are no external motivations. So the first principle, I really believe that [00:38:00] motivation is really important. And for me, motivation comes mainly from admiration.

So in my case, what I try to do first, uh, before I start learning something, I look for people or movie characters that really, really inspire me. Then, uh, you know, as to painters in the Renaissance, I start to imitate them. So from, I, I have divided this into different concepts, so you can do. Static imitation, which is just copying what they're doing or dynamic.

Um, so say you're trying to copy what a movie character is doing, but you also contribute to participate in the action, uh, and you're trying to assist the character or the real person. If, if it is a real person, it really helps. 

Hmm. 

jesus: And then the last [00:39:00] step is self-expression, of course. So it's. Creating content.

Uh, and I know this might sound like a ful activity, but I also really think that we often love to express ourselves. So if we can do so by using any of the tools, we use coverage, that would be amazing. So mostly in synthesizing, et cetera. And just by taking everything we said into consideration. I li I, I'd like to, to finish by saying that I really agree with Robert and Michelle about needing to rethink thinking and schools particularly, particularly, but maybe also professional environments.

So I think we need to shift our focus from what to think, you know, the content of what, of, uh, learning, which is also I positive of course, but it is to shift it to how we think about it in the most productive way.

My last question with all my [00:40:00] guests is, um, leave us something that excites you, either from your personal or professional life, although I think here it's a bit unfair to ask you, like, give us something that excites you because you seem pretty excited about everything we've discussed so far. But, uh, anything that you wanna leave us with.

jesus: Yeah, so, Hmm. Well, I will say I'm really excited about my current project with the. Uh, 'cause we are overnighting students and startups, uh, and we are contributing to the development of very interesting technologies in a really exciting field. Um, also my hope is that the tools in this book and other, other tools can help us, um, to think differently, um, particularly about our challenges, possibilities for the research.

Uh. I also really like, and I, I can't wait to connect to experts in different domains. So, um, hopefully very [00:41:00] soon, uh, I would have the pleasure to interview, uh, is a Spanish, uh, physicist who also won the Wolf prize, uh, for physics. And, you know, just in the long term, I think what really excites me the most is to keep looking for new projects to contributes.

Uh, to continue learning in more effective ways, and especially connecting with like-minded people.

The book we discussed is Sparks of Genius, the 13th Thinking Tools of the World's Most Creative People by Robert and Michelle Ru Burstein. My guest was Jesus Sanchez Herre. Thank you so much for coming today. Pockets. Jesus. 

jesus: Thanks Petra. It was a real pleasure.[00:42:00] 

You've listened to Deep Pockets with Petra Ling, the show about government and innovation. If you like today's episode, please subscribe, like, and share our show in your social media. It means a lot to me and to my guests. The wonderful music you heard. It's by a New Orleans Hall of Fame, jazz icon, Leroy Jones.

Find this and other Leroy Jones tunes wherever you get your music. This podcast as well as the recording of my audio book is done by Chris Elliott at Studio AGU in south of France. Get in touch with Chris to book studio time in our beautiful village, and why not come and taste the natural local [00:43:00] wines from La Robina Winery.