The Art and Science of Recruiting Top Tech Talent

DEEP POCKETS

Season 4, Episode 3 - The Art and Science of Recruiting Top Tech Talent

Amir Rasool

Transcript

Petra: Welcome to Deep Pockets with Petra Söderling, the show about governments and innovation. With each episode we bring you a person and a topic that is part of this larger concept of how countries and regions can create economic advantage by investing in innovation. We're now in season 4. 

Can you believe it? I call this season the random rendezvous. After organizing, scripting, interviewing, editing and marketing 27 episodes, I wanted to give myself a little slack. This season I will invite interesting people I meet online in events or through work. It will be an open mic approach, no scripting, no theme, just me and the guest talking about whatever we feel like, for how long we feel like. 

Our theme song is by New Orleans Jazz icon Leroy Jones. I hope you enjoy this and other episodes. Today's guest is Amir Rasool, from the Orion Group, where he connects top tech talent with leading organizations worldwide. Amir and I got together a little while back to talk about talent and hiring in the quantum industry and I thought it would be nice to share some of our discussions also with you. So without further ado, welcome to Deep Pocket, Samir. 

Amir: Thanks Petra and it's great to be here. 

Petra: Good, good, good. Let's start with you. Tell us about yourself, what it is that you do and maybe how you got to the point in life where you are right now. 

Amir: OK, so I'm a recruit consultant currently focusing on finding talents, as said in the quantum world. I've been in recruitment for over 25 years now, so long time, but it's kind of my chosen profession and I've seen technology change radically over that time. I started recruiting for IBM mainframes, Oracle databases, we've been to architecture as computing has got more and more advanced and then prior to quantum I was recruiting within data science, machine learning and AI and that's kind of pivoted me towards quantum computing and technology and where I am now. OK. 

Petra: Is that, did you do the transition from AI to quantum, kind of like thinking I'm going deeper and deeper into the deep sea or white quantum? 

Amir: Pretty much, it's funny. So AI and data science, I started recruiting in that area about seven years ago and it was an unknown. A lot of people I was talking to, I was saying, hey, look, this is really important, this is what we're going to need and we're going to use. 

A lot of friends at that point in time were like, well, don't understand. I said, look, here's the thing, we've got so much data that's just being caught and companies are going to start to use that and they need to use that and that's where data science kind of took off. And if you think about phones that we use today, just everywhere, we're just amassing data. So that was quite fascinating and seeing what companies are doing with that and I was talking to defense companies, retail and then ended up going into biotech and I think sort of locked down in COVID, pivoted me towards that. You start deciding what they were able to do with vaccines and use the data to come up with novel strategies on how to handle it and then through working into the biotech, quantum started arriving in my kind of vision. So people start talking about computing power, classical computers, quantum and I like tech so I thought I'd come and start doing some research on this and it kind of drew me in terms of what I can do. 

Petra: Do you know what I think? Bio and quantum aren't really tech actually. What I love about them is they're natural sciences aren't they? 

Amir: Exactly. And then we turn them into tech. Well, exactly. And it's exploration, isn't it? Where are we going? What can we do? What are the problems? How can we solve them? And people start talking about obviously speed, efficiency and all of that and it kind of drew me in. I thought, okay, so I started researching a little bit more. And I was like, well, okay, this is a really interesting area and I kind of thought, well, there's going to be a need for this. So that's why I thought, okay, time to turn my attention to recruiting in this area. Yeah. 

Petra: And there's, I kind of love it how you framed it. There's going to be a need and from this discussion and the discussion we had earlier, it sounds also like you're doing this to do good things. You're not doing this to help companies make money but to make like a deeper transformation in the world and use technology to do good things. 

Amir: Well, 100% yeah, actually 100% and it's something we spoke about briefly last time. It's like when I started working in AI and machine learning data science, I was working with companies that were starting to use data, which in a way which I thought was quite manipulative in terms of you've got your recommendation systems and it's, you know, your bio-paragines or whatever and you keep getting these emails and it's trying to entice you in or there's something in your basket and they send you an email or here's the discount and I was like, well, is this the area that I really want to focus on? And then obviously when we went through 2020, 2022, you started thinking about life in different ways and so on. So my focus started becoming data for good, NAI for good. And so people are talking to me all kind of had a shift into that kind of focus and there's like, hold on a second, actually, if I'm going to do something in this, let's use this tech to help, let's put back, you know, let's give back society. So my whole thing is using data and technology to help, you know, and there's a lot to be said where when it comes to, I mean, I'm not the industry expert on this, but quantum computing, I know when it gets tied to AI is going to be revolutionary. When that gets tied to biotech, you know, the opportunities that we think are going to be there are phenomenal. 

Petra: Absolutely. So there's a lot of talk about AI and ethics and the dangers of it. When you do recruiting and you talk to the recruiting companies of quantum, do they ever mention the ethical side of it? Is that come up? 

Amir: Not so much with me and not so much now, but there are, I think it's so much more now in the mainstream. And I think with things like chat GPT and Claude and all of the stuff that's coming up, people are starting to think about privacy, you know, what data is being used to train these models? Whose data is it? 

Have we given permission for that data? What, you know, we've got to start having some limitations on how it's used. So and that's coming from a governmental level from my understanding. 

So that's good. So those conversations are being had in the AI space, which is good because quantum is only going to accelerate that. So if we can start thinking of the ethical considerations at this point, I think we'll be a lot better. 

When I say it's the mainstream, that's probably not the right words, but as it gets more and more popular and more widespread, we're going to be more set up for it. And I think we're a little bit reactive when it comes to ethics, policies, etc., when it comes to AI and data science machine learning, because it's such a new tech that's evolving. 

Petra: So ethics aside, can you compare otherwise recruiting to how you, when you recruit to quantum companies now, how does that compare to recruiting in AI or biotech? 

Amir: Main difference, I mean, the similarities is the scarcity of qualified workers. So, you know, now we talk about generative AI and so on and so forth. The new job titles are evolving daily as companies start to adopt or implement different AI strategies. The difference between quantum and the rest is, I suppose, it comes down to the age of the field, the youngest out of all of them is quantum technologies. Biotech is a lot more established, but they've started looking towards data scientists, which there are a lot more of and actually in that growth in the last seven days. 

Petra: Wait, biotech is looking for data scientists? 

Amir: Yes, data scientists, machine learning experts. Basically, once again, it's they've got a bunch of data. Imagine you're so diabetes, prime example, huge killer around the world. We've got a lot of data sitting there, trials, drug trials, predictive. Yeah, so and then people can use that to see how to predict how diabetes evolves from type one to type two, et cetera. So for that, they need machine learning, engineers, data scientists, specialists to get the data and pull the information out. Once again, I'm not super techie, but this is my understanding from how I how I've been told companies are sort of using tech. 

Petra: Yeah. So I follow you on LinkedIn and you keep posting these job vacancies in the quantum companies. So obviously you mentioned the scarcity of talent. Are there any other challenges in the quantum industry for you specifically when you recruit? 

Amir: For me specifically, right now, it's funny. So we've been on this journey. I've got a colleague Monica who works alongside me and we've kind of put our flag in this camp that we're going to build a quantum division for Orion, which is which is great. 

And you know, I have to thank Orion for backing us and doing that. So they're a recruitment company with 30 plus years and they work in they start off oil and gas. But now they're we're all sort of diversifying. So we look at life sciences, renewables, alternative energy. So, you know, we're looking to support this future. And I said, look, this is something that we need to consider. And they're like, OK, fine. 

And they've kind of backed us to go ahead and do that. What challenges we've found so far is it's actually a very small society right now. Everybody seems to know everybody. So when it comes to recruiting, they're saying, oh, no, we actually know people. We don't necessarily need your help right now, which is fine. 

That's the short term. But what we're also seeing now is if you look at the main quantum companies, they're either building products and they all pretty much begin with Q. But there are now there's a lot of outside interest. And we're having conversations with the likes of EDF, SAP, Standard Chart at HSBC. 

I mean, I've got a list over my shoulder of all just to come and that's growing daily. And they're all starting to vote their own quantum divisions and looking at algorithm researchers, quantum machine learning scientists, software engineers. And they're also saying, look, we might not need you now, but we're going to need you soon. So that's going to be interesting because these companies have big pockets. So that's going to start to draw people out of the traditional quantum companies, which are going to drive up salaries and so on. Exactly. So if you're niche and you're sought after, then that's where the big bucks come from from a recruitment perspective. So that's great for the field in a way. But the problem is we don't have the pipeline coming through just yet. I know that's being addressed at governmental level and academia, but that's going to be a bit of a problem as well. Yeah. 

Petra: So how long do you think it will happen when this quantum is mainstream enough for the salaries to go up and all the big companies start hiring? 

Amir: Well, I'm seeing it already. For example, yeah, we're seeing already. I mean, not as of mainstream. I think what's happened is everybody's kind of seen that, yes, this technology is just getting bigger and bigger. 

And there's an inevitability about it. If you look at in the last week, I think there's something like $117 million was invested in about four companies. And then you've got governmental investment, et cetera. But finance companies that we know of now are actively advertising for quantum network specialists, quantum cryptographers, quantum machine learning specialists, et cetera, you know, 10s to 20 positions. So we're already on that path. Because I really kind of realize we need to be here or hear about it pretty quickly. Yeah. 

Petra: What about hiring non-physicists? You mentioned all these big companies. Do you work with startup founders who might be physicists themselves? And are they hiring non-tech talent? For, for example, for raising money, as you mentioned, they must have CFOs. And hopefully they're not all physicists. 

Amir: Well, that's the, well, that's the next step, really. And that's where we're kind of positioning ourselves is we're saying, hey, look, if you if you've got a startup, what's your main focus? 

Your focus has to be the technology that you're working on. Do you understand recruitment? Do you know recruitment? 

There are a lot of things that will sidetrack you. So our job and how I've recruited in the past is to work with startups to become effectively their HR marketing and recruitment. I'm saying, pass it to us. We'll take care of it. You know, you give us your remit. We'll come back to you in five, six people who know your company are fully prepared. 

And then it really ultimately comes down to whether you get on with them, they get on with you and you're happy to be afford. And some are starting to consider alternatives because you're going to have to. There's a very limited pipeline. And that's going to run dry. And if you think about what I said earlier on with the big companies who are able to pay more, you're a startup with limited funding or your bootstrapped. You're just not going to have the cash to compete. So I think companies are now starting to think, OK, what can we what can we buy effectively? 

What can and then what can we train? So and that's just only going to get wider and wider. And that's part of the reason why I'm in this space, to be honest. 

Petra: But would you consider working directly with the investors? So before they make the investment decision, you could work with the investors. So these wonderful people that could join the company. 

Amir: So funny enough, I've been talking to some because I think another thing, having been in the cream for over 25 years, having worked with a lot of startups, a lot of companies don't actually realize that to grow, you need staff, you need a value proposition, you need a USB, you need to know who your competition are. 

And you need to know if there's if the talent is out there. It's all farewell and getting the investment, having the money. But then if you can't spend the money in the appropriate way to grow the company, which ultimately is on, as I call it, talent, it's people. Your company's not really going to go anywhere. So I'm talking to investors saying, look, as you're investing, let me know, I can help you market analysis, segmentation, salaries, etc. Except if you and we can help grow your companies together. So Pavel was talking with a UK based investor earlier in the week. And we were talking about how can we attract PhD qualified students into these companies. 

And I'm saying the similar kind of things. It's the fundamental thing is why should they work there? And you've got to make sure you've got that right. So if you've got your tech startup with limited runway, but then you're competing against HSBC, you've got to have a good reason as to why someone wants is going to work there, where they're going to go with their career. So, yes, so it's conversations like I said, I'm having with quite a few investors and they're saying, actually, yeah, that's a very good point. 

Petra: Yeah. Do you only work with European companies? 

Amir: No, currently North America and Europe, because it's so small at the moment. Yes. We have that ability, but we don't go east purely due to time, really. You know, we can work east coast, west coast, Europe is very easy. 

But if we go east and we're working 24 hours a day, so we just aren't able to do that. But ultimately, the biggest big, I mean, our company has offices in Chicago, in Houston, in Ireland, in the Netherlands, Germany. So my big picture aim is to have a technology stroke recruitment division in all of those offices, servicing. I mean, the key key areas I see are AI, cyber and quantum. And the thing is they all really connect well together as well. Yeah. 

Petra: Yeah. Yeah, lots of synergies and similarities. Can you compare the regions? Do you dare to compare what it's like to recruit in North America and Europe? 

Amir: Oh, God, you put me on the spot there. I mean, I mean, they're all they're all very similar, I suppose. Americans have, I mean, they've got they have more money, which is and a bigger population. 

Petra: Would they be more willing to work with a recruiter rather than higher? 

Amir: Well, yes. So yes, the recruitment in America is classified. It's seen in a different way as in the business partner, which is great and probably less so in Europe. And I couldn't even answer why that is. But but when it comes down to my proposition, etc., it's because we're so niche. They do listen to you, you know, I can see what issues they may have. And when I approach them, it's actually, you know, I know you're going to struggle with this. Would you like to engage me and I can take a lot of time and pressure off your hands? Yeah. 

Petra: What about in terms of traffic? Do you see more interest from North America than from Europe for hiring quantum talent? People, sorry, people. 

Amir: So right now, I say it's pretty equal. I think Europe is flying at the moment from what I can see. Maybe it's just because my focus has been here a little bit more. But obviously, we have different ways of keeping on top of the market and seeing what's happening, different reports. And the investment in Europe is pretty good. 

Obviously, America is bigger and more money. But there are a lot of roles out there now. There are a lot more companies coming through. 

There seems to be new announcements, literally every week. So, yeah. So part of my job is to connect with both companies and people in that area. And a lot of people are connecting with me now, which is great. And so, yeah, that just shows activity. Cool. 

Petra: Hmm. OK, let's shift gears back to Amir. What about your view? What's in store for your future, the summer or even further along into the future? 

Amir: Oh, for so from a from an Orion perspective, like I said, my plan is to hopefully develop good quantum recruit division and replicate that around the world. So that's a big picture as for me. I think I was in for summer. I've no idea, actually. I haven't thought that far away. I was lucky enough to get away in April because I had a mast on birthday and hopefully maybe mid September, try to get away again. 

Petra: Sounds very good. This has been Amir Rasool from Orion Technology. Thank you so much for coming to Deep Pockets. 

Amir: Thank you, Petra. It's been a pleasure. 

Petra: You've listened to Deep Pockets with Petra Söderling. To subscribe to content, please go to PetraSöderling.com. The wonderful music you heard is by Leroy Jones, an iconic New Orleans jazz hall of fame trumpetist. You can find this and other Leroy Jones tunes as your favorite online or offline music store. Thanks for listening and be sure to subscribe, like, rate and share our episodes. It means a lot to me and to my guests. Thank you.