S5E4: Engineering Empathy: On Purpose and Progress in Tech

This week, the last week of February, 2025, I'm recording two episodes. One is on the topic of how deep tech fields all around the world need international talent. And the other. This one is for that talent to understand what users need as accurately and profoundly as possible. You could call these themes, immigration and DEI, but you'd immediately be firing up a political food fight, [00:01:00] which is not the purpose of this show.

Instead of flat slogans, I want to go deeper into the human aspect of creating, selling, and using emerging technologies. My guest is Juliette De La Rie. She's a strategic communications and public affairs expert and a community builder in the quantum industry. Juliette is certified in ethics, wellbeing, diversity, equity and inclusion, and in psychological science, she's the founder and CEO of Colorful matter, a company providing colorful services from strategy to implementation.

I'll let her explain what this means in more detail in a moment. Juliette De La Rie has worked at organizations such as Heart Hyperloop in Rotterdam, the European Hyperloop Development Program, and most recently as the head of communications at Quantum Delta, the Netherlands National [00:02:00] Ecosystem for Excellence in Quantum Innovation.

Welcome to Deep Pockets, Juliet. Thank you so much, Petra. I'm really happy to be having this conversation with you and excited to be here. Okay excuse me, we. A few weeks ago at the opening ceremony of the United Nations International Year of Quantum, which was held at UNESCO's headquarters in Paris.

And if I remember correctly I think we were in the same WhatsApp group that you had created last summer, 2024 for quantum meets in Amsterdam. And in that group there was some discussion about meetups. Or also in Paris and you just whipped up this new WhatsApp group for quantum meetups in Paris and somehow magically you got over a hundred people in the group.

And then we all, not all a hundred, but some of us met that evening in a bistro nearby, which you just randomly organized. So that was pretty amazing. But I did talk to you earlier in the day as well, and you were so full of energy and so fearless and so dedicated to your [00:03:00] message that I really wanted to have you on the show.

So my first question to all of my guests is, how did you become the person you are today? That's a great question. And first of all, I have to say thank you. It's humbling to hear you say this, and also being called fairness to me personally is a really big compliment. And in relation to your question, I think that is because I haven't always been that person per se.

I haven't always been fairness. I was actually a very shy kid and only managed to get over that. Into my adult life. So yeah, how did I become the person I'm today? Actually that's very much intertwined with my, the story of my career as well, I would say. So I have always been somewhat entrepreneurial.

Like for example, as a kid, I would call up the local newspaper to find others who would also be willing to open up a dance school in my village and things like that, right? Yeah, tho those examples would come up. But yeah, who I am today and [00:04:00] the Paris examples you gave actually have everything to do with what I see as my purpose in life, I would say, which is spreading happiness and making others see their own beauty.

I know that's very specific, but I do try to be that intentional about everything I do. And then the other thing is, let's say yeah my greatest love which so far is actually true in all aspects of life. But this is this is really the quest for the unknown and finding answers to the bigger questions in life.

And that curiosity and love of learning yeah, is what me to also be part of the space today. I can explain a bit more on that by sharing how my life and career developed. And I'm getting a little bit personal here, but yeah, go ahead. I became a mom when I was quite young. I was only 20 years old when I had my first child.

And I now have a 17-year-old son and a 14-year-old daughter. And so yeah, sorry, making this a little bit [00:05:00] personal from, basically when they when the oldest one first went to school this is when I started to notice that part of that was judged a little bit. I started really seeing biases people held towards that.

Like specifically when my son started, he's a fast learner and quite well in school, and then I.

Two obviously surprised reactions. And then this is me being a young mom of mixed kids. And by that time I was also single. We were, I was together with their dad for eight years and by the time we split up and then in an environment where the other parents were together jointly providing for their families and also 20 years than I.

This is a now I find it a little bit sad and a little bit childish, but that really drove me to prove people wrong. So I really wanted to show them I will do [00:06:00] better than all of you. I'm not proud of that. Also, not to towards myself, but that is what I did and that's how I really started to.

Work hard, but also approach my career a little bit in a, yeah, a bit of an opportunistic manner. I would say almost really taking the opportunities that were there. And it was not at all about my happiness or what really interests me or what I wanted to do. I had been part of a lot of different industries, mostly always in marketing, communications related roles and public affairs roles but across a lot of industries.

And then as soon as I. Yeah, let's say managed to reach my initial goals that I had there. I was relatively soon doing quite well, thankfully. Actually, I'm not happy. I'm not in spaces where I meet people that let's say are like-minded. And because I was working so hard, my social life was also very much intertwined with my professional life.

And I just didn't feel like I really belonged [00:07:00] or was having the conversations that really interest me and things like that. And that's when I started to. For the first time in my adult life, really think about, okay, who am I and what do I care about? And the first thing to.

From for as long as I could remember. At a very early age, I would also be very frustrated about what am I doing here? Why don't I understand what this universe is like, very big questions. I don't get it. What is this all for? And so I thought, let me look into where we're at with that. And so I started doing some like desk research and that's how I first basically ran into.

Quantum physics, and that became an obsession, like true obsession. All the, all my spare time was dedicated to exploring that, and not even really in relation to tech, but just in really in the quantum mechanics part. And what do we know? What knowledge can I gain so that I [00:08:00] can think about these questions myself to really have a profound knowledge base.

Anyway, long story short, at some point in my career, I was already in the tech space. I was already a lot happier. And then this job to work for the Dutch. Came along and I really, because it was such a distant world to me I had never actually thought that there would be a space for me there.

I idealized it a little bit. I just thought maybe I could visit certain one day, that would be fantastic, but not really a career in this space. And then this opportunity came about yeah. And that, that worked out. So this is over more than two and a half years ago I actually became part of the.

Introduction.

Really for the first time felt that I really actually belonged somewhere. I met so many people with the same type of love for this [00:09:00] topic, with the same enthusiasm. Like it was really, to me it felt like a community, but I also saw that it wasn't the case for everyone. And then, so yeah, the examples that you gave, such as with these WhatsApp groups and the meetups, that's just all from a base of my, love and being super grateful.

To get to be part of this and I wanna give that back. So yeah, you have to overcome some of your personal challenges. Also, me being a little bit shy, but just being part of. Completely eliminates that for me. Yeah. Wow. Juliet I, oh my gosh, I'm blown away. I'm terrified a little bit actually, to be honest here.

I wish I could go back to tell young Juliet that you are not alone. It's okay. I was also a young mom. I was 23 when I had my son. Oh. But I didn't have any bias. And when you said that you received judgment from being young mom in the Netherlands? Yeah, my ju my bias kicked in. I'm like, in the Netherlands.

No, they don't have any bias in the Netherlands. [00:10:00] Exactly. So I had bias towards that. Yeah. Oh wow. I didn't know that you were also a young mom. That's actually really nice. And this is also, I think, a really good example. Sorry, but I don't wanna go into that too deep. But we find commonalities, right?

Yeah. That we might have on a personal level that will connect you so much more than actually just having a professional common ground or professional interests in relation to each other. And that is Absolutely, and I also I got curious about quantum. Yeah. In the first phase about 20 years ago. So also maybe around the same age as you are now.

Exactly. And just about quantum mechanics and just about how does the world work? Yeah. What is it built of? How does everything stick together? Yeah. Why is this thing green and this thing is yellow? What does it all mean exactly? How did Exactly. And we're not alone. I know other young women who did the same.

Yes. Oh, we're definitely not alone. And so listeners can't see it, but we're both wearing turtlenecks. We have the same JBL quantum headset. So by [00:11:00] coincidence it wasn't designed. There's a lot of commonalities there actually. Yeah. And you know what with relation to what you're saying now, like these bigger questions, I thought when I entered the quantum space.

Yes. I'm finally going to discuss these topics. Never actually realized that sort of the side, the physicist that I have been following, whose work I've been following that they wouldn't be as open per se to discussing all those questions for very obvious reasons, of course. But yeah, still there are plenty people who love to also apply this.

Of course, outside of, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I have a list of questions. We let's get back to it because we have a limited amount of time. Definitely. Let, your story was just mind blowing. So inspiring. Really inspiring. Thank you so much. But I wanna go back to being an entrepreneur. So leaving your job and becoming an entrepreneur.

Yeah. Especially one that promotes something as intangible, like community building, sense of belonging, fulfillment. Yeah. Everything that you just described, it's [00:12:00] very bold. It is. Admirable. So you must have really felt that this is something that an emerging tech field like quantum really needs and it needs it now.

So tell us more about that. Yeah. I do indeed feel very strongly about that actually. So there's a couple of sides to that, right? So first of all, I think in emerging tech such as quantum. We are developing industries that potentially and likely will have a massive impact on society. And if that's the case, and you are working on this now, you should be aware of how you actually also described that society and of the parts you have to play there.

So let's say, is that the society that you identify with? Is that Europe? Is that the US? Is that the global north or should you expect. This tech to have a global impact and that being the case, of course, if you are part of creating this, you obviously have a part to play in making sure that impact is positive not just positive for some and [00:13:00] definitely doesn't come at the cost of others.

I strongly believe that if you want to make that happen, like really thinking about why am I actually eventually doing this? What is the end goal here? Then let's say you have to think about that equal impact and the way. To reach that that seems distance, that can seem very difficult. How do you do such a thing?

We can't control it. Now, sometimes we don't even know where the tech is really going or what applications we will be developing. For example, what you can do is influence the way you are developing that tech. So it's, this is actually proven, but also you might think it's, it makes sense that. The more diverse of voices you include in your organization, in your tech development throughout all parts.

The more perspectives you're gonna cover and the more like creative and comprehensive solutions you are actually going to deliver. [00:14:00] This also goes for the products that you're building. And this is exactly where it be. Often in the tech space, it also becomes a little bit difficult because of course you have a lot of.

Young companies, startups with limited resources, and their mindset is, okay, we have to move ahead like this. Of course, knowing this field, there's investors involved, et cetera, you have to move ahead, so you have to make quick decisions and you have to do what's most obvious.

And then in terms of. Making your company, for example, more diverse and then also making that diversity work by creating inclusive environments. That seems to not really be a priority. If you don't do that, you're actually missing out. You're like, not just today, you're not just not making the impact you should now, but also you're not serving your eventual users and your eventual markets as best because you're leaving markets on set if you are not.

Basically creating products that serve all different pockets, then somebody else will step in and do that. [00:15:00] But I would say especially like that being the case, you solve a lot of the issues actually that you're trying to overcome, timewise, by getting those diverse voices in, and it's really not as difficult as it's often perceived to be.

A lot of the times people don't know where to start. It's, it seems like there is a little bit of a hurdle and that is something that I really want to, yeah, low, lower that barrier, right? For for companies to get engaged, to get started to be informed. Because that's where it all starts.

You have to know what, how is this actually impacting my my organization today? And then there are it's not a quick fix, definitely not. But there are very simple steps that you can take today to start doing better and to immediately have a little bit of a better impact. And that's the part that I that I wanna that I wanna play there.

And then also, like you, you mentioned, and this is. This is very correct. These are [00:16:00] intangible concepts of belonging and happiness in the workspace. And diversity, equity, and inclusion. A little less tangible more tangible, but still. But you do actually implement those.

So let's say besides diversity, equity and inclusion strategy, that's super clear. But aspects like like belonging and happiness, you can incorporate those into the very tangible processes throughout your organization into all the work you do. And then for me personally, I, for example. Offer strategic communications advice and I work in projects like that.

And that is entirely to me, this is my approach entirely intertwined with community building because whether you call that your ecosystem or your stakeholders, you are trying to position yourself within a community. And the approach I take. There, which we just touched upon a little bit, is the personal one, laying a foundation for great personal connections, being a [00:17:00] connector in your space, and then positioning yourself from there.

Because from those like foundation of personal connection, that, that is the like biggest catalyst to me for success in business, in doing business together. Absolutely. Yeah. So important. And I, I always say as well, like people say, oh, this technology is gonna do this and that technology isn't doing anything.

People are doing things exactly like the technology. Absolutely. So you need the people. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I wanna go more into your company. So you do offer a lot of free resources on your website, colorful Matter, eu. Yeah. And I actually took one of your courses. Oh, great. It's the one on, IM.

Implicit bias, right? Yeah. It's not so great. I'll tell you what happened. So I did the your course, it's a 30 minute course on implicit bias. And then within that course you mentioned that you have additional resources on your website. So I did the Harvard test, so there's a link to Harvard website where there are other tests there.

So I did the test on implicit bias between [00:18:00] male and female career and family. And just as a background, I've been a feminist for as long as I can remember. I was the chairwoman at 25 with a 2-year-old kid, by the way. I was I was the chairwoman of the Finnish Women's Party for heaven's sakes.

And even I got the result from this Harvard search survey that I have moderate to implicit bias to group male with career and female with family. So I was devastated. I couldn't believe it. And I thought actually that the result is, was because at the beginning of the test I hesitated a bit and it's time-based.

'cause I didn't know how the test worked. So I did another implicit bias test, and this time it was on women and men and science and liberal arts. And again. It showed that I have a moderate implicit bias to link men with science and women with liberal arts, and I was pretty shocked. And to be honest, I got angry.

So is this a, do you see this? Is this a typical behavior? Because I was [00:19:00] so angry. I was angry at myself. Angry at the test. Angry at the world. Yeah. So to answer that, in short, yes. That is typical, but yeah. So it's typical because it proves the point. Exactly. You got angry because you didn't know, and that's the entire thing with biases.

I had the same experience though. I also, of course, took those took those tests and this is why I'm included them in my in my training because I was actually expecting that my results would end up. On the other side of the spectrum where I have not the expected bias at all, but really would be on the, that's what I expected naively, because I had the same type of results.

There was definitely a moderate bias in, in, in basically all cases to some extent. And it hurts, right? You think, is this right? Yeah, it is actually correct. The test is very well designed. I was also quite yeah, happy about what they did there. [00:20:00] But yeah, it makes you angry. It makes you for me, I was a little bit disappointed in myself at first, but it proves the point of that you actually have something to get.

To work with. Yeah. And it also demonstrates the exact point with biases, which is you do not control them, right? I would say as an organization thinking, you do not need to take action because you already care and you may already have some diversity on board. It isn't true, but it's still very often the case that's how it goes.

And as because you follow the training, I provide a practical process that anyone can use to tackle biases. So it doesn't require you to change them at once because you can't do that instantly, but you can prevent the impact from the biases of happening. So that's why it's so important that yeah, we get informed, we become familiar with this.

And specifically if you're in a leadership role, or let's say you're an HR manager, or basically I would say all of us, but [00:21:00] specifically if you manage a team, you have to make sure that you are informed about this and you know how to deal with it. Because if you just accept I think a lot of us are there.

Okay. Biases. Yeah. That's the thing. I have it. Okay. Sure. That is not enough. If you are aware of the biases you have and like even just the simple steps of how to start tackling it, right? Building that yeah. Mechanisms to prevent impact into your any type of decision making that can already make such a huge difference, right?

I, if I can I just, there's an example that maybe I use in the training as well, I'm not entirely sure, but that I sometimes use, which is imagine that for example, you're an investigative journalist, right? And you are reporting on a story and you wanna do an as good as possible job.

Do you then turn to the person that is right next to you? Maybe the one that is screaming the loudest for your intention or, but anybody in your circle or do you [00:22:00] talk to? As many different people as you can and then build your story from there. And that's just, it's obvious, right? It's I'm like, it's not even a question how you would do that.

And that is the exact thing with diversity and making diversity work, you get like a better result, a better overall product more creative solution, let's say. And this makes any organization more resilient. Yeah, to say it's typical and there's something to do about that. Don't be angry anymore because you now know what to do.

That's wonderful. Great example. Yeah. Okay. My last question. Leave us off with something that you are excited about, something that makes you happy right now. Yeah, that's. A very easy one for me actually, because what makes me very happy right now and what has been making me very happy for the past year and a half or so, is having my kids' little sister as an active part of my [00:23:00] life and seeing them with her.

So this is not my child, their sister. This is the daughter of my of my ex, their their father and his wife. And I. Lucky enough to have a fantastic situation there. And they share their daughter with me a little bit, so she comes over, sleeps here on some weekends and that just makes me incredibly happy because it's such a beautiful, let's say a little bit out of the ordinary relationship that brings a lot of joy to my family, if don't mind.

Wonderful. If we have time, I ask. What makes me happy? Yeah. Oh my gosh, I'm, oh, these podcasts make me very happy. But it's Friday and yeah, I have I live in the south of France. We've had this house for three years and the back garden has been a mess for the past three years. And today I will have someone to come and work with me in the garden and clear it up so well for this summer, for the first.

Time in three years, I'm gonna [00:24:00] have a beautiful flower and vegetable garden in my house. Oh. So that will, that makes me very happy. I love that and I love that for you. I can imagine that would make me very happy too. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. This has been Juliette De La Rie, CEO, and Founder of Colorful Matter, which you can find at colorfulmatter.eu.

Thank you so much for visiting Deep Pockets. Juliette, thank you so much, Petra. It was a true pleasure and so much fun to get to know you a little bit more and discover our carbon nalytics.