The Future of Transatlanctic Relations in DeepTech

Speaker 1: Welcome to Deep Pockets with Petra Söderling, the show about governments and innovation. With each episode we bring you a person and a topic that is part of this larger concept of how countries and regions can create economic advantage by investing in innovation. Our theme song is by New Orleans jazz icon Leroy Jones, our editor Chris Elliott. 

I hope you enjoy this and other episodes. The international policy setting arena is undergoing big changes. This summer, citizens in the 27 European Union countries elected its 10th parliament. The new European Parliament has 720 seats. 54% of these 720 MEPs, which is short for Member of the European Parliament, are newly elected people. 

The parliament, which makes decisions on behalf of 450 million Europeans, consists of 8 political groups. EPP, the group of the European People's Party, is the largest with 26% of the seats. These are the Christian Democratic, Conservative and Liberal Conservative Europeans. The second largest group is S &D, Socialists and Democrats. Their official name is Group of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats in the European Parliament, which has 19% of the MEPs. The rest is divided by the Greens and smaller, right and left-wing groups in varying degrees of extremisms. Just as in the United States, the political arena in Europe is getting more divided, the politics more divisive and the policies, well, we're going to see. 

Safe to say, on national levels, the national parliaments in these EU countries are showing protective, inward-looking, even nationalistic tendencies. The United States held their general election, electing a new Congress and a new president. Republicans now control all of it, the House, the Senate and the White House. 

Also, 27 out of the 50 states are controlled by a Republican governor. This is what's called a unified government. We'll see how unified these branches will be as the rubber hits the road. What will all of this mean for industrial policy in Europe and the transatlantic relationship in aligning deep technologies between these continents? 

I'm joined by someone who is right in the middle of this, knee-deep in the trenches. Milya Kallio Saari is the government relations manager at IQM Quantum Computers, the European leader in building quantum computers for research and superconducting. In this role, she leads efforts to cultivate policy-level engagement and monitor global developments in technology policy. Milya has a master's degree in political science from the University of Helsinki and she studied international law and politics in the Freie Universität Amsterdam during her bachelor studies. 

She is also part of the working group, which is writing the National Quantum Strategy for Finland and a delegate of Finland to NATO's transatlantic quantum community. Welcome to Deep Pockets, Milya! 

Speaker 2: Thanks, Petra. Excited to be here. 

Speaker 1: Your resume is obviously super impressive. I love the fact that you have a degree in political science and still you work in quantum, which is to me the deepest of all of the deep texts out there. Tell our listeners your story. How did you end up in this role? What's the bigger driver inside of you that directs you towards these issues? 

Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Well, as you said, my background is in political science as the actual, let's say, degree that I studied was called society and change. So during my studies, I focused on exactly that. How are societies are changing through different phenomena and society-level issues. And I was planning on working on public sector, as I think typical political scientists usually does. 

But then after my internship at the foreign ministry of Finland, actually my manager during that time said that you're so young that maybe you should do something else before you settle and stay here on public sector, look for other opportunities, see what's out there. So that's exactly what I did. I did some consulting. That was fun, very business-oriented, but then I still missed the political level of it. And then I saw that IQM was looking for a business development manager, and I thought that, well, that's right in the intersection of business and very political field. So I decided to try out and see what they could offer. And actually during the interview process, we realized that maybe a government relations could be something that we could really focus on. So it was a very good fit. 

Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so fascinating. So you started with society and change, and I think that's kind of what you are still doing. Yeah, exactly. So we met each other multiple times over the past years in events that do take place in the intersection of quantum technologies and public policy. So obviously, you are the person I wanted to talk to now in this episode with all of these elections behind us. Let's start with the EU, a quick backgrounder for our international listeners. The highest political decision-making body is the parliament and its 720 MEPs that were elected by the people. There's the EU council, which is a body that consists of the heads of states of these 27 countries. The council defines the general political direction and priorities of the European Union. 

This body does not make or implement any laws. The EU council is not to be confused with the EU Commission. The Commission is EU's main executive body. It puts forward proposals for new laws which are scrutinized and adopted by the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union. It also manages EU policies and budget and ensures that countries apply EU law correctly. The Commission has a president currently held by Ursula van der Leiden. 

It has eight vice presidents and 18 commissioners all responsible for different areas. These are the real top dogs in the EU. Okay, so now the parliament has been elected. The commissioners appointed almost. So, Amelia, what are the next steps? What are the steps that these newly elected rookie MEPs and commissioners and the more experienced representatives and the civil servants are facing as we approach the end of 2024 and the beginning of 2025? 

Speaker 2: Well, when they actually start working, when the commission is set to work, there is a lot to be done, especially on quantum. I think contrary to one misconception, what we are talking about on EU level very much is the competitiveness in tech. But in quantum we are in rather good position. So we have a very solid scientific foundation in the universities and relatively good availability of talent. And I say relatively because the expertise is still very scarce globally. And if we're talking about, let's say, the reports, different papers that have come out so far, that sets the agenda for the next years or so. For example, Mario Draghi underscored in his report that the potential for quantum computing for Europe is huge, especially for the tech sovereignty and competitiveness. 

And Europe has already invested over 7 billion euros in public money, which is second only to China. But however, there are certain things which these reports get wrong. So for example, Mario Draghi said in his report that the EU seems far away from its stated goal of having the first quantum computer with quantum accelerator by 2025 and three quantum superpowers. And the second quantum supercomputer is by 2030. And in a way that's a bit misleading, as the quantum declaration does say that there is a target of getting quantum accelerator by 2025. But this exact goal of having three quantum supercomputers by 2030 doesn't seem to appear in any official EU document. So I want to shed light on more optimistic approach for the industry, because for example the year HPC, joint undertaking, is at the moment investing in six quantum computers that are to be hosted in European high performance computing centers. So the quantum acceleration part is already taking place. So the reality is a bit more complex, but in terms of revenue to quantum computing companies in the EU are very competitive. And EU accounts for 44% of global quantum technology patents according to McKinsey. 

But the real challenge really is as acknowledged by Trackey in getting the private sector more robust in investing in these ecosystems as well as fostering industry development. Well, what about Ursa Wunderlain? Well, in her report that they proposed to adopt during the next commission, she set a goal of developing a long term EU technology. And the EU quantum chip plan that is going to be coordinating, defunding an architecture of decisions and avoiding duplications. And then EU and cloud, EU Cloud and AI Development Act that is going to aim to enhance in European HPC AI and quantum capabilities and infrastructure. And this is also something that Trackey was pushing forward in his report. 

He recognized that this chip's plan is very much needed as well as developing quantum labs and nodes attached to the EU HPC centers. Now when we're looking at the commission hearings, so these are basically. interview exams for the next commissioners to get the job. The commissioner for tech, sovereignty, security and democracy, Hennoveilkonen, said explicitly that she will work on quantum chip span or maybe even an act as well as the EU cloud and AI development act. And I see these initiatives very great as the rapid growth of AI has led to significant increase in energy consumption, primarily driven by the computational demands of machine learning. And in a long run quantum computers can have the potential of doing some of the calculations of AI more energy efficiently and this is something that Birkonen also recognized. So the verdict is that the quantum computing field on the EU level is still developing but the sector is advancing rapidly. And I think the conversation at the EU level shouldn't be about catching up but about leading the way. Because we are very much well positioned to succeed but we must act now. And all of these reports offer great ideas on how to do exactly that. 

Speaker 1: Great. Sounds like EU has its challenges but there is a way out. Sounds like that. Let's spend a moment with the EU's relationship with the United States. Historically we've always had a solid transatlantic relationship even with the previous Trump term. 

We are allies but many people would also call us frenemies quote unquote or having a quote unquote cooperation type of relationship. So how do you see the current situation between these two, let's call them powers? 

Speaker 2: Well I think the EU Commission's new leadership is likely to emphasize Europe's strategic autonomy with defence and technology sectors as a focal point. So quantum is very much in the heart of these discussions as well. At least last week during the commissioner hearings the commissioner delegate Sebkovic who is in charge of the economic security underscored his commitments to collaboration through EU USA Trade and Technology Council. But the readiness to protect EU interest amid potential US political disruption is an interesting development to follow. The council itself hasn't been very active so far and with Trump back in office I'm not sure how the things are going to develop. 

Would there be stronger cooperation? There is some optimism though as some howl who is an associate fellow at the Center for New American Security pointed out just this week in an article by Just Security that the council could play a role also in the future especially in R &D supply chain security and regulation. And also the commissioner delegate for defence industry Mr. Kubilius said that despite the fact that for the time being it's difficult to predict what will the policies of the new United States administration in the near future be we can nevertheless predict that during forthcoming decades the United States is likely to increase its focus on strategic challenges both by China and this long term shift necessitates a more resilient European defence structure. 

So from this point of view especially these strategic technologies will become more and more important. For Finland I think there are two time frames that affect these relations because so far the relations especially in strategic tech has been done on rather bilateral basis on transatlantic level. So I see that Finland can itself strengthen the existing defence and trade ties to US but of course the broader resilience and reliance on bilateralism could expose certain risks. And then again I think all of the great global powers need allies so the strategic competition between China is a central challenge to US and retaining the EU within its sphere is a certain interest for them whatever happens especially in these strategic technologies where Europe holds a significant strength in certain fields so allowing trusted allies talent and companies to drift away wouldn't be in US interests really. And that being said the long term effect on rule based global order are a critical question for EU especially for Finland as our geopolitical position demands sustained international support and rule based world order. The EU and NATO relations and structures are something that are really a central issue for us. 

Speaker 1: You mentioned in relation to the EU and USA relations you were talking about defence and those types of things but you didn't mention funding and the fact that US companies have so much more funding than the European companies. Do you see any way for European and American companies or investors to collaborate and cross pollinate the funds? 

Speaker 2: I think especially in these emerging fields the critical question is the wider industry activation so getting big industry players and enterprises to collaborate with deep deck actors more efficiently. And this is an issue that I think US as well is facing so maybe we could have joint collaboration on these areas because then again like what are the key issues why industry doesn't engage with deep deck companies. 

The R &D costs are high and they don't have usually the existing knowledge inside the house so this is something that's recognized on EU level as well as in US and I think this is something that we could work together develop programs and ways in which industry could collaborate more. 

Speaker 1: Great. Thank you. Let's go back to defence. One of the important things to remember about deep deck is that you can use it for good. You can create efficiencies, you can create new products and services, investors are investing in these companies and all of this is contributing to the economies and people's lives and wages and jobs. But you can also use them for bad. You can use these technologies for spying, hacking, breaking things, causing havoc. 

And unfortunately modern warfare is increasingly hybrid in nature, sovereign nations need to defend themselves against all kinds of invisible threats. How do you see the role of technology in this new world? 

Speaker 2: Of course the role of defence and security is moving more and more on the sector of quantum computing. We are seen on those circles even more strongly nowadays. But something that I always want to emphasize especially when we're talking about regulation of tech from this point of view is that we are not a new Manhattan project. 

Contrary to the times of Cold War these technologies are mainly driven by public sector actors and not through huge government programs even though it's still very much publicly funded. But still the actors are a bit different so that's something that needs to be remembered. But then again like if we're looking at the conversations that we are having on EU level, everyone is talking about security as well as resilience. And with dual use technologies of course there is always the defence sector applications. But usually the civil applications for the wider societies come first. Just because for example in quantum computing issues such as molecule simulation or battery development are applications that are expected to come early on. 

Before the let's say security critical applications. And then again when we're looking at what's happening on EU level the question of how to boost the defence industry on EU level is an urgent one. But of course different member states have very different defence needs. So for example Finland needs a very let's say traditional defence and Spain might need something else. 

So when we're looking at okay where should we put our money when it comes to defence. I think dual use technologies are a very good bet. They will give the boost for civil society through more efficient ways of working, optimising industries. Which will then again also boost the European competitiveness as well as the security and resilience. 

Speaker 1: Okay this has all been very interesting but I want to move to a lighter topic. So Milja, tell us something that excites you at the moment. Is there anything that you are especially looking forward to either in your personal or professional life? 

Speaker 2: On my professional life there are many things that excite me at the moment but maybe on a more lighter note. Well it's Friday so I'm looking for the weekend. I'm looking for having a slow breakfast, a big cup of coffee, hopefully some sunlight because it's November in Finland. So the mornings are dark and cold and I really try to cherish these very ordinary moments as well most of life and daily life exactly is those. And I guess it's also a bit of a coping mechanism when I'm trying to survive the desperate times in dark and gloomy Finland. 

Speaker 1: This has been Milja Kalliosari, the government relations manager at IQM Quantum Computers and a delegate of Finland to NATO's transatlantic quantum community. Thank you for coming to Deep Pockets Milja. Thank you so much Petpa, this was so much fun.